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Post by ikefist on Oct 29, 2008 8:45:11 GMT -4
I wasd thinking instead of lost colonys beening so many hex away from each starting planet How about so many hex away from your main planet only besides it makes a fair amout of since since it would most likely be sending ships to colonize from your primary in the begining
Also instead of paying cash to colonize planets we should introduse the idea of a colony ship at size class 2 or something it would make more since or a combination of the two a colony ship could count as so many points in colonizing a planet like 20 or 30 if not just populate a planet out right
Also whe should check to see if there is a nebula before exploration is roled as a ship first moves through it although it does make since it would slow down the game a bit
even though there might not be a colony ship ssd not sure the could just be considered inactive if there is no ssd and iv the ship escourting it get wrecked the ship is captured
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Post by cheethorne on Oct 30, 2008 10:38:36 GMT -4
I wasd thinking instead of lost colonys beening so many hex away from each starting planet How about so many hex away from your main planet only This makes a lot of sense to me. It also reduces the chance of finding those free lost colonies, and makes life more interesting (you have to invade those primitive worlds). Also instead of paying cash to colonize planets we should introduse the idea of a colony ship I don't know about this. It seems like a nice idea, but colonizing a planet should be a long process and what is to say that one colony ship couldn't be replaced by several freighters of various types... actually, there might be something there. There are several civilian ships that we never use (like the cruiser liner). If those ships were tied into a colonization mission, people would have a reason to build them and have them sticking around. Also whe should check to see if there is a nebula before exploration is roled as a ship first moves through it although it does make since it would slow down the game a bit I know it doesn't always seem realistic that a ship could fly perfectly fine through a nebula before its discovered, but not afterwards, but I don't think what you are suggesting would work well. It would definitely slow down movement.
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Post by cheethorne on Oct 30, 2008 11:05:44 GMT -4
Here are the accumulated change notes I've made for v7 of the rules. Some of these are uncontroversial, others may cause complaints, and some of these we have all agreed on already. Let's discuss these changes and bring opinions.
For v7: General Changes: * Supply chains can enter, but not pass through nebula hexes and unsurveyed hexes. * Players can purchase large asteroids at a cost of 100 CPV. Each large asteroid can hold one ground base (cannot be large), which has a 360 degree arc of fire, but a planet can only have a combined total of 4 large asteroids and moons (so a planet with four moons cannot have any large asteroids). * Tugs can channel BPP for any type of project. Bases can only channel BPP for projects to build base augmentation modules, to give themselves refits, and to upgrade themselves to a better type of station (base to battle to sector). No other units can channel BPP for projects. Only active pods on a tug can be used to channel BPP * Planets can exceed their maximum troop limits under some circumstances but only until the end of the turn that allowed them to exceed that limit. * Units that disengage from battle or use the evasion mission cannot be used to pin during the next impulse. Fighters (and equivalents) carried by such units also cannot be used to pin. * Each time you take control of a province that another player controlled, you gain +1 VP. * Ships in a blockaded system cannot be used to pin enemy ships. * Bring Advanced Race rules up to modern standards (40 CPV per turn for ship construction, but make it only sc4 ships, give them good ground troops).
Set-Up Changes: * Starting year is Jan 1, Y175. * Players start with one Primary (the capital), two Majors, and four Small Planets, each has a Base Station and a Planetary Dry Dock. * Planets must all start from the primary. The primary planet must start at least five hexes from a map edge and cannot be within eight hexes of another player's primary. * Once a major or small planet is placed, roll 1D8. A result of 1-6 determines the direction to the move planet one hex. A result of 7-8 means the planet remains where it is. This gives a fairly random empire generation for seven planets. * Players start with 5000 CPV to buy ships with. + Each player must buy 14 police ships, 3 sc3 local defense ships, and four sc4 local defense ships. You can purchase additional sc3 local defense ships in place of the sc4 local defense ships. + Races that do not have a sc3 local defense ship, must buy 7 sc4 local defense ships instead. + Player can start with two tugs. * Players start with 600 CPV of accessories. * Players start with one complete set of legendary officers.
Ship Support Changes: * Primary planets normally give 1 non-battleship size-2 ship support. The Capital planet allows an additional size-2 ship of any type (including Battleships). This means players can only control 1 battleship and only as long as they control their capital planet. * Only Primary and Major planets allow for 1 survey ship to not count against the military ship limit. * Any ship that can survey hexes counts against the survey ship limit. * Tugs count against the limit of military ships instead of a special tug limit. * Each small and large exploration ship counts as a separate ship against the ship support limit.
War-Time Economy Changes: * When a player enters a war-time economy, he must stay in it for at least four turns. * You can stay in a war-time economy for as long as a formal ally of yours is in a war-time economy, as long as you are in a war-time economy for no more than 12 turns. * When you are in war-time economy, you add +1 sc4 slip to each planetary dry dock. * When you are in economic exhaustion, you lose one sc4 slip from each planetary dry dock.
Production Changes: * All ships must be built with all available refits. * If it would complete a ship, a player can channel up to 10 additional CPV into a dry dock slip, but at a cost of 2 CPV per CPV channeled. * Ships that can survey hexes count against the survey ship production limits. * Players cannot scrap ships counting against the local defense or police ship limit.
Combat Changes: * New combat mission: Active Defense. Active Defense, is like the Hold Mission, except it requires establishing early warning sensor pods to form a perimeter around the ships, which requires time to take down. Ships using the Active Defense mission start at Weapon Status 2 (still speed 0 and in the center of the map), but lose 1 operational movement point (taken from the next turn if some of the ships have zero points left) and they cannot move on the next impulse that they could move. * Battleship command limit is reduced to 5, to bring it in line with dreadnoughts. * Maximum of two fighters squadrons in each group or in a Sortie Group. Only the first four fighters on a Hybrid ship don't count towards the fighter limit. * Remove the +1 CR for carriers to bring in escorts.
Survey Changes: * Lost Colony range is now 4 hexes from the starting capital planet. * Only one small exploration ship is required to survey a hex, but shift its die roll on the hex information chart 2 closer to 10 - 11. * Only one large exploration ship is required to survey a hex, but shift its die roll on the hex information chart 1 closer to 10 - 11. * Change Planet Table to include Small Gas Giant and Large Gas Giant. + Small Gas Giant: 30 CPV per turn, 1D4 moons. + Large Gas Giant: 60 CPV per turn, 1D8 moons. + The small gas giant would replace the 14-16 = Major Planet result on the planet type table.
Civilian Explorers: * Each player has a number of civilian surveyors that explore around their empire, providing maps and exploring hexes. You cannot stop them from doing this. * Each turn, a player selects a number of hexes and they become explored and surveyed with Open Space as the result. * The hex selected must be within your supply chain using only supply points you control. If no such hex exists, then you must select a hex with a survey ship (that got a delay this turn) or adjacent to a survey ship. * The number of hexes explored in this way depends on the game turn, as follows: + Turns 1-6: one hex per turn + Turns 7-12: two hexes per turn + Turns 13+: three hexes per turn * This is done after normal exploration results for all players.
Radical Change - Ship Construction: * Ships can be built in one round, by paying the full cost of the ship. * I feel this will provide better balance between the races. As we get later in the game, the high cost of some ships is negated by the fact that the ship is build at the same rate as cheaper ships (30-40 CPV per turn). * The expensive ships might take longer to build, but again, once you get past the beginning of the game, all dry dock slips are building ships as fast as they can, without downtime, on an empire scale the length of time it takes to build an expensive sc3 ship vs. a cheap sc3 ships is practically irrelvant. * With this new system, building two war cruisers could cost 260 CPV (roughly), while building two expensive heavy cruisers could cost around 360 CPV (roughly). That is a much more dramatic difference that will affect production as people have a reason to build cheaper ships that would have taken just as long to build as a more expensive ship.
Radical Change - Combat: * Space and Ground Combat only occurs at the end of the turn. * Impulse activity is now limited to: + Deployments + Movement + Scans * This change will speed up turn processing (no more combat in the middle of a turn). * The change will also slow down rolling over a player with a single massive fleet, as the ships in that fleet get pinned by opposing ships or have to wait for a combat to resolve before moving on unless you choose to split up your fleet. * Without this rule, pinning is irrelevant, as smaller ships can never effectively pin larger ships, since the larger ships move in and can attack and destroy the smaller ships before they even have to move out again. * The only places where pinning is relevant is where two nearly matched fleets are in the same hex and the aggressor does not wish to lose ships against the other player. Of course, in such a case, the aggressor would have to eventually attack in order to get his ships out anyway, so he might do it right away or bring in further reinforcements. * This change allows pinning to have a much more dynamic feel, as placement of "interception" forces changes how a player can advance into your empire. * This style of strategic movement is used effectively by Federation & Empire (as is the one-turn ship production).
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Post by john on Oct 30, 2008 14:19:50 GMT -4
For v7: * Tugs can channel BPP for any type of project. Bases can only channel BPP for projects to build base augmentation modules, to give themselves refits, and to upgrade themselves to a better type of station (base to battle to sector). No other units can channel BPP for projects. Only active pods on a tug can be used to channel BPP Also, any other empty cargo boxes on a tug can be used with the active pods. What are you suggesting for this? Can you expand on this one. I'm not sure what you mean by this last point. And players start with one academy. I'm not sure about this last one. We've already changed things around for tugs rather significantly, I'd be happier if each planet could still support a tug. Perhaps I'd even go so far as to say, you can only have a maximum number of tugs as equals your number of controlled/integrated planets. What's this about, freighter survey ships? Also, I think that regardless of the fact that you're in ED or have just finished turn 12 of WE, if enemy CUs are within six hexes of your capital that you should be able to bring your original seven planets to WE for four turns. I still think that any sc 2 or 3 ships that are designated as 'control' ships should get a +1 to CR. All gas giants should have the same stats for moon, so large or small would have 1d8 moons. Also, as for terrain. When a ship, any ship, moves into a hex for the first time the presence of terrain should be rolled immediatley. When survey units explore, it is then determined if there are planets or asteroids. This will allow for planetary systems to appear in space terrain hexes and get rid of the inconsistency of shipps freely moving through a hex that is later discovered to be a nebula. Also a L Science Officer can do his shift both on the terrain chart and then on the other chart to see if there is anything else present. The LSO can negate the presence of one neighbouring Nebula. A L captian can act as the SO in these cases. I really like the idea of the civilian exploration teams, It will actually allow some control, a player has over the shape of his empire and can get around annoying nebulas. I don't really like this as a standard form for the game. I understand what you are saying, I just don't like this system over the other one. I prefer ships being built over many turns, it seems more 'realistic'. This last change seems really good, I think it will really help the flow of the campaign. Also, one thing I wanted to bring up is the supply chains. I find it really lame that ground bases and other system defenses can be moved about so freely. I'm fine with cpv, bpv, fighters, drones and crew getting shifted around this way, but I think bases and DEF SATS need to be build on spot or shipped in cargo boxes. Also, some notes on defense and police movement. First, if these units would pass through a nebula this must be taken into account and resolved under normal nebula rules. Second, if passing through a hex with other ships in it those ships may chose to pin.
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Post by ikefist on Oct 30, 2008 14:34:06 GMT -4
I Really love the new combat rules the radicial change i really really vote for itand makes pinning and commiting to attacks and the mass fleet idea much much more risky
AS well i was thinking that only fast and x ships should be able to pin fast and x ships it makes fast ship more valueable giving there lower heavy weapons compliments or at least it would take 2 non fast or x ships to pin fast /x ships
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Post by ikefist on Oct 30, 2008 14:37:03 GMT -4
Quote:Set-Up Changes: * Starting year is Jan 1, Y175. * Players start with one Primary (the capital), two Majors, and four Small Planets, each has a Base Station and a Planetary Dry Dock. * Planets must all start from the primary. The primary planet must start at least five hexes from a map edge and cannot be within eight hexes of another player's primary. * Once a major or small planet is placed, roll 1D8. A result of 1-6 determines the direction to the move planet one hex. A result of 7-8 means the planet remains where it is. This gives a fairly random empire generation for seven planets.
I'm not sure what you mean by this last point.
That is simple rolls a d6 1-6 give direction a/b/c/d/e/f/ 7-8 means don't move it so all the placed planets r not just 6 out strait which makes a lot of since
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Post by ikefist on Oct 30, 2008 14:40:01 GMT -4
Quote:Ship Support Changes: * Primary planets normally give 1 non-battleship size-2 ship support. The Capital planet allows an additional size-2 ship of any type (including Battleships). This means players can only control 1 battleship and only as long as they control their capital planet. * Only Primary and Major planets allow for 1 survey ship to not count against the military ship limit. * Any ship that can survey hexes counts against the survey ship limit. * Tugs count against the limit of military ships instead of a special tug limit.
I'm not sure about this last one. We've already changed things around for tugs rather significantly, I'd be happier if each planet could still support a tug. Perhaps I'd even go so far as to say, you can only have a maximum number of tugs as equals your number of controlled/integrated planets.
OHHH NO Every planet need its own tug where the tugs r only builder unit and stations r toooooooo needed to for supplie chain
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Post by ikefist on Oct 30, 2008 14:43:51 GMT -4
Quote:War-Time Economy Changes: * When a player enters a war-time economy, he must stay in it for at least four turns. * You can stay in a war-time economy for as long as a formal ally of yours is in a war-time economy, as long as you are in a war-time economy for no more than 12 turns. * When you are in war-time economy, you add +1 sc4 slip to each planetary dry dock. * When you are in economic exhaustion, you lose one sc4 slip from each planetary dry dock.
Also, I think that regardless of the fact that you're in ED or have just finished turn 12 of WE, if enemy CUs are within six hexes of your capital that you should be able to bring your original seven planets to WE for four turns.
Sounds fine but your empire should suffer even farther if u r in DE before hand like u cann't collect resourse from anywhere else in your empire except territories and alliances as everything in empire would have to be sending all there products there to support and u would get a extra 8 turns of ED after for all planets
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Post by ikefist on Oct 30, 2008 14:54:16 GMT -4
Quote:Radical Change - Ship Construction: * Ships can be built in one round, by paying the full cost of the ship. * I feel this will provide better balance between the races. As we get later in the game, the high cost of some ships is negated by the fact that the ship is build at the same rate as cheaper ships (30-40 CPV per turn). * The expensive ships might take longer to build, but again, once you get past the beginning of the game, all dry dock slips are building ships as fast as they can, without downtime, on an empire scale the length of time it takes to build an expensive sc3 ship vs. a cheap sc3 ships is practically irrelvant. * With this new system, building two war cruisers could cost 260 CPV (roughly), while building two expensive heavy cruisers could cost around 360 CPV (roughly). That is a much more dramatic difference that will affect production as people have a reason to build cheaper ships that would have taken just as long to build as a more expensive ship.
I don't really like this as a standard form for the game. I understand what you are saying, I just don't like this system over the other one. I prefer ships being built over many turns, it seems more 'realistic'
Yes thats kinda true But u can make it so size 4 slips can only do it once every 3 turns size 3 oonce evry 4 turns Size 2 once every 5 turns 8 turns if battle ship And maybe ectra 2-3 turns if x ships and pfs at one per slip per turn ect or something along those ideas makes dry dock record keeping much much simpler and much easier to track and double check incase of player mistakes
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Post by ikefist on Oct 30, 2008 15:02:04 GMT -4
AS FOR the WE U should be able to Double the slips per dock but under ED u would only have 1 slip for building period limiting the Primary one just a bit more
And i realy don't understand clearly the size 2 BB and the size to non BB support by non bb do u mean dreadnaughts r alloud or only support and will every planet be aloud one free SR still
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Post by ikefist on Oct 30, 2008 15:05:17 GMT -4
OH on the thats kinda true But u can make it so size 4 slips can only do it once every 3 turns size 3 oonce evry 4 turns Size 2 once every 5 turns 8 turns if battle ship And maybe ectra 2-3 turns if x ships and pfs at one per slip per turn ect or something along those ideas makes dry dock record keeping much much simpler and much easier to track and double check incase of player mistakes
All convertions could be 1 turn pre slip unless converting to a x ship then it would be like 3 turns or something
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Post by ikefist on Oct 30, 2008 15:45:40 GMT -4
OH for the original idea i had when i logged on here earlier before i seen people replied posts
INtead of 2 moons and small belt per planet players should be given 140 CPv or planettairy resourse to place 7 planets X 20 = 140 is my logic as well as every has the same starting resourse not not same things players desison moons as groud base belts do not However Belts still get some CPV during ED
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Post by ikefist on Oct 30, 2008 19:17:10 GMT -4
I Really like your rules for hiring mercenaries forces Kevin we should use it
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Post by ikefist on Oct 30, 2008 19:18:09 GMT -4
I really like off map resourses as well
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Post by cheethorne on Oct 30, 2008 23:55:29 GMT -4
* Tugs can channel BPP for any type of project. Also, any other empty cargo boxes on a tug can be used with the active pods. Right. All cargo boxes on the actual tug ship can be used to channel BPP (such as the stupid large number of cargo boxes on a Hydran tug). * Planets can exceed their maximum troop limits under some circumstances but only until the end of the turn that allowed them to exceed that limit. What are you suggesting for this? We have a normal limit on the number of troops that a planet's controller can put on the planet. This prevents players from putting thousands of marines and tanks on a single planet. However, nothing prevents players for transporting a stupid large number of troops to capture a planet, especially since they know, by the rules, the maximum number of troops that could be defending it. This creates a bit more uncertainty in what could be defending a planet during a short period of time (basically, the intention is that the turn you expect a planet to be attacked, you can unload troops from the orbiting ships to bolster its defenses temporarily). * Ships in a blockaded system cannot be used to pin enemy ships. Can you expand on this one. When you announce that you are blockading a system, the owner of the system can choose where the ships he controls in the same hex are going to be located: in the blockaded system or outside the blockaded system. This note just ensures that people know that when the put ships in a blockaded system, they won't be able to pin other ships. A minor point really. Set-Up Changes: * Once a major or small planet is placed... I'm not sure what you mean by this last point. Andrew explained it well in his response. Basically, it allows for some more randomization in the placement of planets. That way they are not all in straight lines from the capital along the six directions. And players start with one academy. This is unnecessary. If players want to buy the ground bases that are part of an academy, they can. We shouldn't require them to if they don't want to. Ship Support Changes: * Tugs count against the limit of military ships instead of a special tug limit. I'm not sure about this last one. We've already changed things around for tugs rather significantly, I'd be happier if each planet could still support a tug. Perhaps I'd even go so far as to say, you can only have a maximum number of tugs as equals your number of controlled/integrated planets. Well, I am easily swayed on this point. I don't think we should have a maximum number of tugs. This point is probably older than the change of making tugs required to build bases and was made when the primary use for tugs was battle tugs, carrier tugs, etc. * Each small and large exploration ship counts as a separate ship against the ship support limit. What's this about, freighter survey ships? Currently, four small exploration freighters only counts as one survey ship, if each small exploration freighter can survey a hex, then each should count as a separate survey ship against the survey ship limit. Makes sense to me. Also, I think that regardless of the fact that you're in ED or have just finished turn 12 of WE, if enemy CUs are within six hexes of your capital that you should be able to bring your original seven planets to WE for four turns. I don't agree with this. War-Time Economy represents an empire going into super production to build more ships and defenses for a brief period of time. When you exhaust yourself after this kind of activity, you can't really continue because you are still in danger, if you could continue if someone is within six hexes, then why couldn't you continue if they were within seven? Why just those seven planets, etc. Andrew brings up a good alternative about sacrificing most of the rest of your economy to allow those several planets to continue on a war-time economy, and that has some possibilities, but, personally, I think it is an over-complication to the war-time economy / economic exhaustion mechanic. I still think that any sc 2 or 3 ships that are designated as 'control' ships should get a +1 to CR. The problem with allowing much of anything to have +1 CR is that the difference between say 3 ships and 4 ships is a lot greater than 8 ships and 9 ships (the likely difference between the original command rating of a heavy cruiser and its area / division control ship variant). Remember, a space control ship (Dreadnought variant) and Stellar Domination ship (Battleship variant) all have a CR of 10, just like all other ships that size. In fact, the note about flag bridges giving +1 CR needs to be changed so that an Orion dreadnought doesn't get +1 CR, while allowing an Orion heavy cruiser get the +1 (since the Orion's don't have a command cruiser variant). All gas giants should have the same stats for moon, so large or small would have 1d8 moons. Sure. I got no beef with that. When a ship, any ship, moves into a hex for the first time the presence of terrain should be rolled immediatley. When survey units explore, it is then determined if there are planets or asteroids. We should change the space terrain chart then to include only space terrain as opposed to space features. For example, we should remove black holes from that chart and put in Ion storms. It's too bad we'd lose the fun of rolling a black hole or a pulsar, but overall, I don't think people would miss them too much. Also a L Science Officer can do his shift both on the terrain chart and then on the other chart to see if there is anything else present. Be careful about making science officers too powerful. They only cost 12 points and people are going to have two of them really quickly (one to start and people build a second right away). A L captian can act as the SO in these cases. I don't agree with this. Captains should be able to reproduce any officer in a battle, but at the strategic level, they shouldn't be able to do that. They shouldn't be able to become a Navigator when you find yourself in a nebular, etc. Radical Change - Ship Construction: I don't really like this as a standard form for the game. I understand what you are saying, I just don't like this system over the other one. I prefer ships being built over many turns, it seems more 'realistic'. Definitely more realistic, but one turn for ship construction (with an exception made for battleships and possibly dreadnoughts) makes record keeping a lot easier and generates some real choices for players to consider. For example, I never built large freighters, there was never a point. Building a large freighter took 61 points over two turns to generate 50 cargo boxes in one slip, while I could build two small freighters over two turns in one slip with 50 combined cargo boxes at only 52 points (26 each). With this new system, I now have a real choice. I could get more cargo boxes per turn by buying the more expensive freighter or I could build the smaller freighter, but it would take me longer and tie up the production slip for longer to get the same number of cargo boxes. Ship construction goes for the same point: Build a destroyer that costs 100 over three turns or 120 over three turns, the difference is negligible, only 7 CPV per turn as opposed to 20 CPV if it was built in one turn. Incidentally, Federation & Empire uses the one turn production system as well, and to good effect. This last change seems really good, I think it will really help the flow of the campaign. Excellent. Andrew seems like it as well. I think it should definitely be used. Also, one thing I wanted to bring up is the supply chains. I find it really lame that ground bases and other system defenses can be moved about so freely. I'm fine with cpv, bpv, fighters, drones and crew getting shifted around this way, but I think bases and DEF SATS need to be build on spot or shipped in cargo boxes. Ok. This sounds reasonable. You could say that ground bases, base augmentation modules, mines, and defense satellites (all the things involved in system defense) have to be moved manually, but ship equipment can be moved effortlessly through the supply chain (in addition to CPV, BPP, etc. of course). Also, some notes on defense and police movement. First, if these units would pass through a nebula this must be taken into account and resolved under normal nebula rules. Second, if passing through a hex with other ships in it those ships may chose to pin. You should read rule 4.5.3, which covers pinning that results from reserve movement. However, it should also mention the effects of moving through nebula hexes in the same section.
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