james
Casual Magic Player
Posts: 19
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Post by james on Oct 1, 2007 9:26:57 GMT -4
Aw man. Well, looks like I need to drop a destroyer or two.
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Post by john on Oct 1, 2007 10:05:31 GMT -4
Does anyone know what the BPV cost on a large ore carrier is?
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Post by cheethorne on Oct 1, 2007 13:26:55 GMT -4
I can find out tonight.
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Post by cheethorne on Oct 1, 2007 14:32:30 GMT -4
One final thing. I think we should play with the following rule, taken from the main set of campaign rules:
MAINTENANCE: - All ships need to return to a base to remain fully maintained.
- This maintenance includes shore leave, new orders, training, refueling, engine flush, life support, new food, and a general ship check.
- Ships must come in for maintenance as follows: * 10 turns - Tug, LTT * 8 turns - BCH, BC, CA, CC * 6 turns - CL * 4 turns - CW, NCL, CM, DD, FF * 3 turns - DW * 1 turn - PF * N/A - bases, FRDs, BLMs, SAMS, survey ships, freighters, police ships, cargo ships.
- Ships not specifically mentioned above require maintenance based on their hull types. For example, a Federation Scout, based on a DD hull, requires maintenance every 4 turns.
- Ships can be maintained at any base as follows: * Starbase = any ship * BATS = any ship * BS = any ship * FRD = any ship * BLM = any ship * SAMS = class 5 ships or smaller * PFT = PFs only
- A ships becomes fully maintained if it ends the turn in a hex with one of the bases/ships above that can maintain it (during the maintenance phase).
- Ships not maintained properly receive the following penalties: * The first time a ship is not maintained it gains the equivalent of a poor crew and it gains +1 to any breakdown roll. * After the next missed interval, the poor crew penalties become doubled. * These penalties are immiediately removed when a ship becomes maintained.
The main purpose for including this rule is because of the use of CPV when repairing ships, this greatly reduces the effectiveness of certain things (FRD's, BLMs, SAMS, repair freighters) and really eliminates the need to build bases along the border of your empire.
For example, if I share a border with Dude, why would I ever build a base along that border. It is not on a planet, so to build ships, it takes a lot more effort then simply building the base above a planet. If Dude ever decided to invade me, he could just fly around the base, and I couldn't stop him. And without these rules, I could park a fleet of ships in the middle of no where forever without any consequences.
Like the other rules I've mentioned, this one does not seem too heavy and enhances the realism of the game. It also provides an interesting dimension to invading someone, since you have to build new bases or bring slow units along with you to maintain your invasion fleet or risk your ships not being fully maintained.
Generally, for the first few turns, when most of us are building our forces and exploring the neutral zone, it won't matter. I mean, who cares if one of our scouts is no longer fully maintained since all its doing is exploring hexes on the board. Although I can see why in the original rules (and not for our campaign), only survey ships could explore the neutral zone.
Any thoughts?
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james
Casual Magic Player
Posts: 19
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Post by james on Oct 1, 2007 14:49:22 GMT -4
Hmmm... I'm not sure that maintenance is a good idea. I mean, I like its idea, but the execution does mean more book keeping...
Wont we be going back for reloads and repairs anyway? Isnt building a starbase on the edge of your territory a good idea just for the repair of your ships + a good place to keep retaliatory vessels. Using the example you used: If Dude did bypass your starbase, any ships you had posted there would be free to plunge deep into his space with most of his fleet gone.
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Post by john on Oct 1, 2007 14:52:50 GMT -4
I dropped the maintenance out of the game for ease of play.
Perhaps after we see how this campaign plays out we can include maintenance in future campaigns.
As to the use of bases along borders in the present game, there is still repair and resupply to be considered. I think any prolonged action into an enemy's territory is going to require the use of bases, but I guess that is at the player's discretion.
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Post by cheethorne on Oct 1, 2007 19:50:49 GMT -4
I thought repairs cost CPV to do and could only be done when the CPV was made available, such as bringing it out in a cargo ship or when done at a battle station above a planet that generates CPV.
Perhaps tommorrow we can discuss where I am wrong about this.
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Post by dude163 on Oct 1, 2007 20:25:16 GMT -4
I think repair was automatically calculated based on the repair ability of your FRD Base or planet?
Guys, I honestly think this campaign will be crushed under its own weight, its getting more and more complex and we dont have someone to GM or administer it, The original idea was a few areas of space to fight over and since that basic premise we have added a lot of extra stuff
Im not saying I dont want to play, but I dont think its going to be workable
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Post by cheethorne on Oct 2, 2007 0:30:12 GMT -4
I think a few of the rules are more complicated than they need to be or at least more confusing than they need to be (such as repair). But I think things will smooth out as we get into it.
The actual process of moving ships, exploring, and constructing ships, which will take the bulk of our time and strategic thinking are pretty simple.
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Post by john on Oct 3, 2007 11:07:07 GMT -4
I think repair was automatically calculated based on the repair ability of your FRD Base or planet? Guys, I honestly think this campaign will be crushed under its own weight, its getting more and more complex and we dont have someone to GM or administer it, The original idea was a few areas of space to fight over and since that basic premise we have added a lot of extra stuff Im not saying I dont want to play, but I dont think its going to be workable The rules for campaign repair are in the SFB rules, as is how much BPV can be transported in a cargo box, as is the cargo requirements for drones, shuttles, crew, T-bombs, etc. Maybe Kevin could create one of his handy master lists for such things, I know he has a master ship list with all the other info we need on storage and reloads, etc. So far, since I put out the abridged rules nothing has been added to increase the bulk of work, we are not adding maintenance, we have taken out moons, each player needs an SSD for each ship or station....
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Post by cheethorne on Oct 4, 2007 13:00:00 GMT -4
John and I were talking about what to do about the repair rules and I came up with a proposal to make things easier for us, let me know what you think:
I think the best and easiest way to handle repair is to just simplify it by eliminating the cost.
In the rule book, every repair unit in the game has an entry that mentions how many "repair" points they generate between "campaign" turns. We could use those numbers and just say that repairs are free, but a unit has to be docked to the station or repair facility to get repaired.
For example, a Fleet Repair Dock can hold two ships at the same time and lets say that it generates 120 repair points per turn in each bay. This would allow you to repair 20 points each impulse that a ship remains docked to the FRD.
This is mostly as per the original campaign rules anyway, but by eliminating the need to pay for repairs with CPV, we eliminate the need to figure out how to transport that CPV to a repair station, with all the extra book-keeping that entails.
What do you think?
PS: Oh, as for many "repair" points that each repair unit generates per campaign turn. I will get that information for us.
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Post by cheethorne on Oct 4, 2007 15:32:58 GMT -4
Oh, also, there is a very complicated rule involving fighters that I would like to remove from the campaign. It hasn't really come up yet, but I'm sure it will.
According to the campaign rules, only base stations and battle stations may build ships, but FRDs can build class 7 vessels. I'm pretty sure this means fighters and shuttles. This means that if you can haul the CPV out to an FRD in the middle of no where, you can build fighters at that FRD.
However, there is a very complicated rule involving the training of pilots for those fighters, which can only be done on a planet, and then another complicated rule involving transporting those pilots to their fighters, which can be done on any ship, but it cannot exceed the ships limits on extra crew, or you could use a star liner ship or a VIP pod or a commando ship and leave some boarding parties behind.
I find it all very complicated and silly. I say that we drop this rule and say that if you can build a fighter at a place (such as an FRD in space or a battle station on your border), you get the pilot for free.
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Post by john on Oct 4, 2007 17:44:27 GMT -4
I'm going to have to disagree on the second subject, if crew are required for something or you're replacing lost crew on ships, they have to have come from a planetary source. I don't find the rules for this that complex, but if a majority feel this need to be changed I will go with it.
As to dropping the cost for repair, I think that is a great idea, though if we go this way about it, I think we have to limit the number of FRDs that each player can build/support.
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Post by cheethorne on Oct 5, 2007 7:24:44 GMT -4
I forgot about having to replace crew members on a damaged ship. That would be important to still have in the game, so it makes sense that if you are transporting people around to crew a ship, you have to transport people around to crew a fighter.
My objection to that rule is withdrawn.
As for limiting the number of FRDs, I don't think that is necessary. They cost quite a bit of BPV each and they can't move under their own power, they have to be moved by one tug each and tugs can be pricey to build as well. In addition, they show up on the map as an independent unit if left behind a fleet, making them vulnerable to attack. I really don't think it will be a big issue.
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Post by john on Oct 5, 2007 12:44:52 GMT -4
Sure, I guess we don't need to limit the frds.
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