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Post by cheethorne on Sept 14, 2007 10:24:10 GMT -4
I was going over the campaign rules and I saw that you changed the starting fleets from 2000 EPV to 1200 EPV, is this going to make it too hard to eventually defeat another player's star base?
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Post by cheethorne on Sept 14, 2007 10:44:58 GMT -4
Just to make sure we are on the same page, are we using the following rules for ship selection (taken from the campaign rules linked to at the beginning of the thread):
Ship Selection: - Each player starts with 2 small freighters and 2 large freighters. - Each player starts with 1 SB and 2 BATS. Each must be located in a different hex and is known to all players. The location of each base within the hex, their position relative to any terrain feature, the speed of orbit, and the rotation of the bases must be noted. - Each player starts with 1 police ship assigned to each planet hex. Federation players may not start with a POLCV. - Each player then selects his remaining starting forces. Starting forces are chosen using the BPV system from Star Fleet Battles. In all cases, use the higher of Economic or Combat BPV. Each player receives 1200 BPV from which to build his starting forces, subject to the following restrictions: - Only 1 class 2 ship may be chosen. - Only 1 BCH may be chosen. - Only 1 CC of any type may be chosen. - Only 1 Leader of any type may be chosen. - Only 1 of each of the following may be chosen: - Scout - Tug or LTT (and only 2 pods may be chosen) - PFT - Mauler - SFG armed ship - CVA or CVS or CVU - CVL or CVE - Killerhawk - Survey Cruiser - Mine Laying Vessel - Troop Transport/Commando Ship - FRD - BLM, SAMS - All fighter boxes must possess fighters. - Legendary officers, crews, or pilots may not be purchased (nor may inferior crews or pilots be used for a discount). - Monitors, police ships, and bases (except for ground bases) may not be chosen. - Escorts may only be chosen if the carrier they escort is chosen (the reverse is not true). Refer to Federation and Empire for allowable escorts for each carrier type. - Freighters and Priority Transports may be taken at will (and are highly recommended). 1 Q-ship may be purchased for every 2 freighters (of a similar size) purchased. - Aside from Freighters and Priority Transports, no race may start the campaign with more than 3 of any single ship class. - Ground bases may be purchased at the normal cost. However, see rules for Ground Base placement. - Any historical refits are allowed. Historical limits on units still apply. Thus, fighter types are limited per their reload boxes. A Hydran player may not have more than 1 out of every 6 PFs be a Howler. A scout PF and/or Leader PF may not be chosen unless part of a full flotilla of 6 PFs. Refer to the Star Fleet Battles rules for other historical limitations. - X ships are NOT allowed. - Conjectural ships are not allowed. The Klingon B10 (K/S/V) and the SSCS ARE allowed.
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Post by john on Sept 14, 2007 13:37:56 GMT -4
That's correct, with the exception of the size 2 ship, we are not using class 2 ships this game.
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Post by john on Sept 14, 2007 13:41:42 GMT -4
I was going over the campaign rules and I saw that you changed the starting fleets from 2000 EPV to 1200 EPV, is this going to make it too hard to eventually defeat another player's star base? It shouldn't, but it will prolong the game, since attacking a player's starbase in the early part of the game would just be suicide, we'll be forced to build up over a longer period.
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Post by john on Sept 15, 2007 11:00:57 GMT -4
Actually, I realized I told you wrong in the last post. If you look through the first page of this thread the simplified rules are there. There is also hard copies available at the store.
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Post by cheethorne on Sept 28, 2007 9:43:52 GMT -4
I didn't see this on the first page, but I think we should employ the following rule from the original source material:
4.2.2 - CONSTRUCTION LIMITS * It can be assumed that though the admirals of the Klingon Empire knew that a D5 was better than a D6 or that the Federation High Command knew that the CLC far outmatched the CA. However, it can also be assumed that there was a reason why every ship built wasn't a BCH or CC, or why every Hydran PF wasn't a Howler. Since many of these considerations (political, economic, logistical) are outside the scope of this campaign, and since seeing the same ships built over and over again is extremely boring, the following construction rules are in effect: * Only 1 size class 2 ship may be under construction at any one time. * Only 1 size class 2 ship may be completed every 4 turns. * 1 BCH may be completed every 4 turns. * Once a CC is built, 3 non-command ships of the same size class must then be built before another such CC may be built. * 1 Carrier (CVL, CVE, CVS, et al) may be started per turn. * 1 Scout may be started per turn. * 1 PFT may be started per turn. * 1 tug may be started every other turn. * 1 mauler may be started every turn. * 1 survey cruiser may be started per turn. * No escort class may be built without its carrier in service and missing an escort. Carriers may be built without their escorts (e.g. a Hydran AFF may not be built unless a CVA is missing the normal number of such ships as its escort). * All ships with fighter boxes must be built with a full compliment of fighters. Such fighters must be compatible with the reload boxes that come with the ship. * All ships must be built as a standard ship of its type, with full boarding parties and crew units, all shuttles, et al. * PFT need NOT be built with any PFs. * The per turn build rates are not savable. In other words, if a player does not build a scout for 10 turns, he is not entitled to build 10 scouts on his next turn. He must always abide by the 1 scout started per turn restriction. * The above limitations apply to conversions and refits also. In other words, if a player begins to convert a FF to a scout, then he may not also begin to build a scout ship in the same turn.
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james
Casual Magic Player
Posts: 19
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Post by james on Sept 29, 2007 12:25:02 GMT -4
So... with regards to fleet selection and my relative inexperience with it, do you need to have x number of destroyers before you can choose a fleet destroyer or some other destroyer variant? Same with police frigates and police flagships. Do we have an actual physical map for the campaign, or is it going to be all coordiantes and paper? I think the first official turn of the campaign is mostly going to be explanations.
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Post by john on Sept 30, 2007 10:18:38 GMT -4
We pretty much don't have to worry about building restrictions, at the level we're playing with three small productive systems and all...
But if a majority of players think these building rules are a good idea, then we'll add them.
James; We have a map, and you need to place your three productive systems on said map. The only restriction that has been put in place to date, is that no one is building size 2 ships and no size 1 stations... though we may be adding the above restrictions if people are worried about it...
Hopefully Dude will be able to drop of the SFB stuff at the store.
And yes, I agree, most of the first campaign session, or two, will be exploration and build up.
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james
Casual Magic Player
Posts: 19
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Post by james on Sept 30, 2007 10:23:30 GMT -4
Cool. I think that eventully. Say, after so many turns of play and we are all established, maybe we could allow a single size 2 ship to be built. It could represent our infrastructure finally being able to support such an endevour.
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Post by dude163 on Sept 30, 2007 12:37:27 GMT -4
Hopefully Dude will be able to drop of the SFB stuff at the store. And yes, I agree, most of the first campaign session, or two, will be exploration and build up. I cant make it this tue but I will drop off the gear
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Post by john on Sept 30, 2007 13:27:18 GMT -4
Kevin and I had also talked about limiting any incursions into other's territory until turn X. Any objections to that rule?
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james
Casual Magic Player
Posts: 19
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Post by james on Sept 30, 2007 19:50:12 GMT -4
Dont suppose anyone could give me a drive home Tuesday? I live in Riverview
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Post by cheethorne on Sept 30, 2007 22:32:22 GMT -4
First off, I will give you a drive home assuming that you can get there. It is a bit out of the way for me, but not that badly.
As for fleet selection and construction, I look at it in three ways.
First off, I support the following restrictions in total for the game (or at least the first X turns): * No size 2 ships. * No Starbases. * No X-ships. * No conjectural ships.
Second, when you are selecting your initial fleet of 1200 points, I don't think there should be any special limitations except for the following: * All fighter boxes must possess fighters. * Legendary officers, crews, or pilots may not be purchased (nor may inferior crews or pilots be used for a discount). * Escorts may only be chosen if the carrier they escort is chosen (the reverse is not true). * Aside from Freighters and Priority Transports, no race may start the campaign with more than 3 of any single ship class.
I like these rules because most of them enhance the realism of the campaign and are not onerous at all. Most of us probably won't come across them anyway. The rule about no more than 3 ships of any one class is to help provide diversity to our games and to our fleets. It would be kind of boring if one player had a fleet of ships that were all identical.
The rule about the fighters is to prevent people from cheating by buying cheap carriers and then loading them up with fighters at a later time, since fighters are a lot easier to build and can be built at more places than carriers.
Third, for purposes of the campaign, again to enhance realism in building specialized technology (like special sensors and maulers) and to enhance the roles of certain ships (such as the frigate leaders in a group of regular frigates), I think we shoud play with the following construction rules: * Once a CC is built, 3 non-command ships of the same size class must then be built before another such CC may be built.
* Once a Leader type ship is built (such as a destroyer leader or frigate leader), 3 non-Leader ships of the same ship type must be built before another such Leader may be built.
* 1 Carrier (CVL, CVE, CVS, et al) may be started per turn. * 1 Scout may be started per turn. * 1 PFT may be started per turn. * 1 tug may be started every other turn. * 1 mauler may be started every turn. * PFT need NOT be built with any PFs. * No escort class may be built without its carrier in service and missing an escort. * Carriers may be built without their escorts. * All ships with fighter boxes must be built with a full compliment of fighters.
* All ships must be built as a standard ship of its type, with full boarding parties and crew units, all shuttles, et al.
* The per turn build rates are not savable. In other words, if a player does not build a scout for 10 turns, he is not entitled to build 10 scouts on his next turn. He must always abide by the 1 scout started per turn restriction.
These rules are fairly simple and help to provide diversity to our fleets and provide some realism to our campaign. It wouldn't make sense to have a fleet of command cruisers and destroyer leaders running around.
What do you guys think?
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james
Casual Magic Player
Posts: 19
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Post by james on Oct 1, 2007 8:07:17 GMT -4
I agree with almost all of those provisions, however, with regards to the "No more than 3 ships of any one class" rule, I find that very restrictive. I am attempting to model my fleets in a similar fashion to other space-games I've played and so I have a large amout of smaller ships escorting a few medium and one large vessel. If I cant have more than 3 destroyers, thats going to to seriously affect my fleet setup.
Now, thats not to say I'm not concerned with engaging a fleet with 5 identical ships, I would like to see diversity too, perhaps set a limit of 3 of the same type in a single "fleet" or "stack" of ships?
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Post by john on Oct 1, 2007 9:09:03 GMT -4
The restriction for '3 the same' was only for the initial buy, after start-up you can produce any number of ships, provided you are meeting the other restrictions.
The above guidelines that Kevin has introduced do seem reasonable, and I'll even agree to them even though I'll have to totally rethink my initial set-up and later production. I had intended on using escorts, lots of escorts... oh well.
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